What drew you to want to make this film?
Chai Vasarhelyi: The project had all of the elements that Jimmy and I love best: against all odds, immense suspense, and the opportunity to tell a story that is about something deeper, which in this case was what makes us human and what brings us together rather than what divides us. I really believe there are not enough positive Asian depictions in non-fiction so we were acutely aware that to do this right, we had to be able to listen to the Thai point of view because so much of the story is about how these two very different forces came together to achieve this one goal.
Jimmy Chin: I’ve made a career of examining stories about human potential, the strength of the human spirit and what humans are capable of when faced with what seem like insurmountable challenges. That was certainly the case with this story. There were so many people from so many different places and backgrounds and beliefs that had to come together to achieve this impossible goal. The story showcases that it doesn’t matter who you are or where you’re from, when a child is in danger, it touches everyone. It highlights the common denominator we all share - empathy and humanity. I also loved the confluence of unexpected heroes and a wild rescue all taking place in the extremely dangerous world of cave diving. I knew all these elements would make a compelling film .
When did you actually start making the film? How did that tie to the emergence of the pandemic?
CV: We began making the film in the late summer, early fall of 2019. We had to do this very large digestion to understand what had happened during the rescue. We immersed ourselves. We were supposed to have our first big shoot in February of 2020, in Chiang Rai and then England. But it became clear that it was too risky and too unknown to leave the country at that point. I really wanted to go to the cave, I needed to feel it, walk it, understand it. This was the first time that we were making a film where we weren’t actually there in person for the event itself, to witness it. That was one of the real challenges.
So much of making a documentary is the relationship that you forge with the material and the film participants. You weren’t there for the rescue and then the pandemic made it impossible to move. How did you negotiate that?
CV: When the pandemic hit, we both felt that it was a real priority to keep on working. So a lot of this film is filmed via Zoom with a local crew on the ground, either in England, Australia or Thailand. And it’s certainly not the same. The interviews wound up being very, very long, like hours upon hours. It’s always strange to meet someone over Zoom, especially when you’re about to forge an intimate relationship, when these people are trusting us with telling their story. We were dealing with different languages, different time zones. The amount of people who had to come together under all of these challenging situations is extraordinary. But all of these people believed in the story and they were willing to contribute.
JC: The pandemic brought up a lot of questions and unknowns for everyone—how you were going to move forward on basic things in life that weren’t even related to the film. It certainly became apparent there would be some additional restrictions around what are often already very difficult aspects to documentary filmmaking, whether it’s access to the subjects or getting enough time to get to know them. In documentary filmmaking, it’s critical to build the relationships and trust that’s required between the directors and their participants. You’re not going to get the deep, personal answers that you’re really looking for unless you have somebody’s trust. Often you go and meet with participants multiple times, do multiple interviews in person and have dinner afterwards. It’s those moments in between that establish rapport. Sometimes you don’t get to that deeper place until your fifth interview. That’s such an important part of the process for us. So not having that opportunity weighed heavily on Chai and me.
How did you deal with that?
JC: Through the process we were pleasantly surprised that we were able to get some great interviews virtually, and over time we felt like we were making good headway in terms of building relationships with the film participants. It was really helpful to spend some time with them in the United Kingdom when we were at last able to travel there to film. But I will say we had some credibility going in. Most of the divers had watched Free Solo and Meru. I felt comfortable going into this film and working with the divers. I have worked with a lot of athletes, adventurers and explorers in really high-stakes situations. I understand why they do it, the kinds of decisions they have to make and the situations they face. Despite the fact that I’ve never gone cave diving, I think there was a sense of mutual respect and understanding. We practice different crafts but the motivation to wake up every day and get out there to constantly push yourself and your craft is the same. I’ll never ask, “Why would you ever go cave diving?” I totally get why they go cave diving. Not the absolute specifics of it but I get why they are obsessed and have shaped their lives around this activity because that’s what I’ve done. Sometimes I need a check-in and Chai tells me, “That’s not normal.” Our partnership is very useful because there are certain things I understand deeply but might be too close to and it’s really important to have the different objective perspective that Chai brings.
How aware were you before this film of cave diving as a thing?
JC: I was aware of cave diving through my peer group at National Geographic. Most of the photographers are highly specialized in a specific area of work. Whether it is conflict or mountain or microbiology or wildlife photography, everybody is at the top of their field. Technically they are highly accomplished in their fields as well. I knew of a few underwater photographers who dived and even a few who specialized in cave diving. I understood that it was highly technical and that cave diving was considered the most dangerous discipline within diving. Normally when you’re diving, if something goes wrong, you can work toward the surface. In cave diving if something goes wrong you can’t surface. So your main point of safety is no longer there. One of the top National Geographic cave-diving photographers in the last ten years died, Wesley Skiles. It was a big deal among our community. So yes, I was aware that cave diving is highly technical, very dangerous and takes a lot of experience. A lot of things can go wrong. If there’s an accident when you’re cave diving, it can be catastrophic with a high likelihood of fatality.
CV: I’ve been a diver all my life. I know it quite well. But I don’t know cave diving. I’m always scared to go into a cave when I’m diving because you don’t have a direct route to oxygen. The Thai Navy SEALs are an elite team trained in open-water diving. And the differences between open water and cave diving are profound. In open water you always have a buddy. In cave diving if one person gets in trouble and another person is with them, they’re both more likely to die. I didn’t know about the subculture. And when it came to the Thai rescue, I didn’t know the ins and outs of how difficult the decisions were to make around the excavation of the kids.
When did you first get to England to meet the cave divers in person?
CV: October of 2020. In England we shot reenactments. It felt appropriate to have the real divers demonstrate how they did it. So we did it in the tank and we got to spend time with them. We were testing for COVID every day. I had already done extensive interviews by then but it was great to meet them in person. What they did with the children was incredibly impressive. It really brings home the idea that panic is your worst enemy. These men have trained themselves to stay calm in the most difficult situations. They’re the best of the best. The moment I received my second vaccine I got on an airplane to go to Thailand. For a few reasons. We had heard that the Thai Navy SEALs had footage because the admiral’s wife was a filmmaker and I had interviewed her and learned a lot about Thai culture. This was our last shot at trying to do justice to the Thai point of view. I met with her and she agreed to let us use her footage, which was kind of a miracle and a leap of faith on her part. It was also important to me to meet the coach and some of the children. And to see the cave. I did walk to the very end and it was terrifying at first but there was no other way to really understand why thousands of people were needed.
How did you approach telling the Thai side of the story and the rescue?
JC: It’s always interesting when you get a story that’s been cast around the world. People can experience things completely differently even though they are seeing the same story. Everybody has their perspective and it’s our job to explore these various perspectives of the event and try to paint the most accurate picture of what was happening. For a long time, we were working in a vacuum and didn’t have the footage from the Thai Navy SEALs. It was really important for us to understand their side of the story.
CV: There was always this rumor that the Thai admiral’s wife had footage. I thought maybe there was 90 minutes. There was 87 hours. It was like having the curtain pulled back. This footage of the children and the rescue has never been seen before. It was locked away in a vault. We got very lucky that these critical moments happened to be filmed. I can’t tell you how difficult it was, how hard we worked to get the footage. Anything we could do to make the story more vivid was important. My favorite part of nonfiction is that you can’t write your way out of it. But it was very unclear in the beginning how we would do it.
What was it like using many different sources to craft the narrative?
JC: This was one of the big challenges we faced - just getting the facts straight and figuring out who was a reliable source. Everyone’s experiences of the event were so different. Oftentimes people are telling you completely different accounts of the same moment. The perspectives were also cross-cultural. John [one of the English cave divers] is an IT consultant from the UK. He had to work with a highly specialized special forces team from Thailand that normally runs covert operations. They came from two totally different worlds. So taking into account these cultural differences was important for us. All the rescuers had the common goal of saving these children, and seeing how they came together to do that is pretty extraordinary.
What were the biggest challenges in this film for you?
JC: Like any documentary, we want to tell a great accurate story, show multiple perspectives and develop the characters in a way that people can empathize with who they are and what motivates them. But we also believe films should be entertaining, exciting to watch, and moving. It’s always difficult to balance all of these objectives. There were quite a few challenges with this film in particular. Just getting the footage from inside the cave and the event has been a multi year struggle. Establishing the scale and complexity of the cave was also difficult. It’s hard to imagine what the cave even looks like. We needed to give context to the space they were operating in so we put a lot of time into creating the VFX and 3D maps to show the scale of the cave and the divers. When you see the size of the cave and divers and how far they needed to go, you really understand the danger, complexity and difficulty of the endeavor.
CV: The first fifteen minutes I was in the cave, I was essentially hyperventilating. After that, I found it a great adventure. It’s cool, there’s a breeze, you’re scrambling on rock, in the darkness, in silence. It’s quite muddy and slippery. There are chambers that are 75 feet tall but it’s pitch-black. It’s scary. I tried to visualize what it would be like to be there in the dark for days unable to move because you might fall. I came back very moved and I’m so grateful I had the opportunity to actually go in and then meet the children afterwards and sit and talk with them.
JC: We worked really hard to bring the perspective of the Thai military but we didn’t have access to their footage. They are also used to running covert operations and not used to giving up their stories, identities and perspectives. It runs counter to their culture. But it was the Thai Navy SEALS who were running the rescue operation. They had a very difficult task. When you take on a rescue, it’s more than just going and rescuing someone. You’re also taking on the accountability and safety of the rescuers that had come in from all over the world in a highly dynamic and dangerous situation. They had the unenviable job of managing the global media pressure too. They were being scrutinized by the entire world while being forced to make terrible choices with only horrible options.
What are your favorite moments in the film?
CV: I have a few. I really like how John describes how he puts his emotions in a box and puts them on the shelf because I think it makes it very clear the self-control these divers have to hone to be as good as they are. I also really like how everyone emerged from this with a changed perspective and having found their place in the world. My favorite clip in the film is John’s motivational speech to the kids in the cave.
JC: I also have quite a few favorite moments. I love Harry [the Australian cave diver and doctor] and his story. He plays this pivotal role. He’s a great character put into an impossible situation. At one point in the story the entire rescue sits on him and he has to concoct this cocktail of drugs to make it happen. There’s a lot riding on him. Seeing how he manages this pressure is inspiring. I love the exchange between Derek (Master SergeantCaptain, U.S. Air Force Pararescue Special Warfare Flight Commander) and Rick and John. When Derek asks “What does the impossible look like?” Rick and John explain their idea. Derek responds with “That’s a terrible idea.” It’s a great moment. It would be a great moment in any movie. I love the third act, the whole rescue.
What would you like the audience to take from the film?
JC: I hope people are inspired by the humanity of the global community of rescuers, the courage of the divers and Thai Navy Seals and the bravery of the kids. I want people to come out of the theater asking themselves “Could I ever do that? Would I have made the same choices?” I think the divers really exemplified great moral courage. They didn’t have to go back in. I hope people are moved by seeing what great moral courage looks like and how people are able to achieve great things and overcome seemingly insurmountable odds through perseverance and determination.
CV: I think it’s the absolute morality of Rick. He felt an absolute obligation to figure out how to save the kids. If only we all did what’s fundamentally decent and responsible… that’s interesting. It’s about the common thread we all share -- about finding your place in the world. We see the divers evolve emotionally. We see their attention to detail and methodology. We cherish that, love it, want to honor and respect it. Truth is so much stronger than fiction.